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Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by passion4 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:53 pm
what are the main differences or benefits between each in terms of use in a bus?
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by maddison » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:25 pm
type 4 is better
type 1 fits easier
type 1 fits easier
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by maddison » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:29 pm
to elaborate…
type4 is designed for a bus, in standard form it kicks out more power..and how you need it in a bus , low down
nicer set of carbs….or…..best option more modern fuel injection and you'll be laughing, you don't need to start messing too much inside the engine itself
main downside is your gonna have to run modified tinware
you could spend a fortune and build a monster…but a stock 2ltr type 4 with decent fuel system is GREAT
type 1…you need to spend a fair few quid to get a type 1 to do what a type 4 does stock
let the debate begin
type4 is designed for a bus, in standard form it kicks out more power..and how you need it in a bus , low down
nicer set of carbs….or…..best option more modern fuel injection and you'll be laughing, you don't need to start messing too much inside the engine itself
main downside is your gonna have to run modified tinware
you could spend a fortune and build a monster…but a stock 2ltr type 4 with decent fuel system is GREAT
type 1…you need to spend a fair few quid to get a type 1 to do what a type 4 does stock
let the debate begin
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by scottish splitty » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:43 pm
Two very good answers..
you just about summed it up Maddison....although I'm sure he needs more info than that
you just about summed it up Maddison....although I'm sure he needs more info than that
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by andy » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:30 pm
read this a while ago so may answer a few questions on this subject(if I have done the link correct)
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.php/vw-type-1
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.php/vw-type-1
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by David914 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:36 pm
TypeIV parts are generally more expensive and less readily available
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by DoubleD » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:45 am
Agree with all the previous comments.
A major difference is the cooling system. On a stock Type 4 engine, the cooling air is blown into the engine horizontally by the fan on the crankshaft and then deflected downwards through the cylinders by the tinware. It is a very efficient system and in my experience a stock Type 4 engine will run much cooler than a Type 1 engine that has been modified to achieve the same performance. Unfortunately the stock Type 4 cooling arrangement will not fit into a Split, so an alternative has to be used. There are several different kits available, eg. Raby DTM, Porsche fan/alternator, CSP system, but none of these are cheap.
Also, the Type 4 heat exchangers are bigger than the Type 1 variety and the two are not interchangeable due to the different location of the Type 4 exhaust ports. If you want the vehicle heating to be supplied by the engine, you will need to obtain modified heat exchangers, which again are not cheap, or use some form of auxiliary heater. Even if heat exchangers are not used, suitably shortened header pipes will be required.
Whatever cooling setup you adopt, it will be necessary to make up certain pieces of tinware to seal the engine area. Generally, these are quite easy to produce out of ally sheet. Unfortunately there is not much ready made stuff available.
Despite the effort (and expense) involved in fitting a Type 4 engine into a Splitty, the results are very rewarding in terms of performance and longevity. I once replaced a stock 1600 twin port motor in a late bay with a stock 1800 Type 4 unit - the difference was amazing. It went up those long motorway inclines like they weren't there! I ran it as a daily driver for many years without any problems. That experience convinced me that when I restored my Splitty, it would have a Type 4 engine - and it has.
A major difference is the cooling system. On a stock Type 4 engine, the cooling air is blown into the engine horizontally by the fan on the crankshaft and then deflected downwards through the cylinders by the tinware. It is a very efficient system and in my experience a stock Type 4 engine will run much cooler than a Type 1 engine that has been modified to achieve the same performance. Unfortunately the stock Type 4 cooling arrangement will not fit into a Split, so an alternative has to be used. There are several different kits available, eg. Raby DTM, Porsche fan/alternator, CSP system, but none of these are cheap.
Also, the Type 4 heat exchangers are bigger than the Type 1 variety and the two are not interchangeable due to the different location of the Type 4 exhaust ports. If you want the vehicle heating to be supplied by the engine, you will need to obtain modified heat exchangers, which again are not cheap, or use some form of auxiliary heater. Even if heat exchangers are not used, suitably shortened header pipes will be required.
Whatever cooling setup you adopt, it will be necessary to make up certain pieces of tinware to seal the engine area. Generally, these are quite easy to produce out of ally sheet. Unfortunately there is not much ready made stuff available.
Despite the effort (and expense) involved in fitting a Type 4 engine into a Splitty, the results are very rewarding in terms of performance and longevity. I once replaced a stock 1600 twin port motor in a late bay with a stock 1800 Type 4 unit - the difference was amazing. It went up those long motorway inclines like they weren't there! I ran it as a daily driver for many years without any problems. That experience convinced me that when I restored my Splitty, it would have a Type 4 engine - and it has.
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by passion4 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:34 am
sweet looking instal!DoubleD wrote:Agree with all the previous comments.
A major difference is the cooling system. On a stock Type 4 engine, the cooling air is blown into the engine horizontally by the fan on the crankshaft and then deflected downwards through the cylinders by the tinware. It is a very efficient system and in my experience a stock Type 4 engine will run much cooler than a Type 1 engine that has been modified to achieve the same performance. Unfortunately the stock Type 4 cooling arrangement will not fit into a Split, so an alternative has to be used. There are several different kits available, eg. Raby DTM, Porsche fan/alternator, CSP system, but none of these are cheap.
Also, the Type 4 heat exchangers are bigger than the Type 1 variety and the two are not interchangeable due to the different location of the Type 4 exhaust ports. If you want the vehicle heating to be supplied by the engine, you will need to obtain modified heat exchangers, which again are not cheap, or use some form of auxiliary heater. Even if heat exchangers are not used, suitably shortened header pipes will be required.
Whatever cooling setup you adopt, it will be necessary to make up certain pieces of tinware to seal the engine area. Generally, these are quite easy to produce out of ally sheet. Unfortunately there is not much ready made stuff available.
Despite the effort (and expense) involved in fitting a Type 4 engine into a Splitty, the results are very rewarding in terms of performance and longevity. I once replaced a stock 1600 twin port motor in a late bay with a stock 1800 Type 4 unit - the difference was amazing. It went up those long motorway inclines like they weren't there! I ran it as a daily driver for many years without any problems. That experience convinced me that when I restored my Splitty, it would have a Type 4 engine - and it has.
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by DoubleD » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:19 pm
Thanks - took a while, but worth it.
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by Tony Shep » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:10 am
I run a type 4 in one of our bays, its a 1700 and after a few issues that made me think it was a crap motor (tracking was out when we got it and the engine was fighting against it) Now is flies and its a 1700! Ive got a 2ltr Im going to rebuild for it now.
The 1700 is in a x over bay, which is heavier than a split, not sure by how much though. Ive had 75/80 out of it on a flat road, not that I choose to do that very often! If anyones interested, I'm running Dellortos on this, it did have baby Dell's but they were well past their best, so I got me some of these from eurocarb...
http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/p ... tionID=164
Some parts such as heat exchangers are silly expensive and good used ones are hard to find. i also don't think they make the thermostat any more!
Ive got an 1835 T1 for my split!
Tony
The 1700 is in a x over bay, which is heavier than a split, not sure by how much though. Ive had 75/80 out of it on a flat road, not that I choose to do that very often! If anyones interested, I'm running Dellortos on this, it did have baby Dell's but they were well past their best, so I got me some of these from eurocarb...
http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/p ... tionID=164
Some parts such as heat exchangers are silly expensive and good used ones are hard to find. i also don't think they make the thermostat any more!
Ive got an 1835 T1 for my split!
Tony
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by DoubleD » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:22 pm
I'm running the original Solex 36/40 PDSIT carbs at the moment with a Vintage Speed bus exhaust. I have a set of IDF40's ready to fit when I get around to it, although it is running perfectly well with the Solex's at the moment.
If anyone is contemplating fitting a Type4 motor, the most powerful one that VW produced was the AN series. This was fitted to the 412LS cars of the mid-70's era and was an 1800cc unit producing a reliable 85bhp in stock form. It is actually more powerful than the standard 2 litre engine found in late bays. It was an AN engine that I put in my late bay to replace the original 1600TP - it went straight in without any problems. As has been said, a bay is heavier than a Split, and my bay flew! The low down torque is particularly strong - great for hills.
The Porsche 914 also used the Type4 engine, 1800 initially, then 2.0. Not sure if these were AN series or not. Someone who knows about 914's might be able to shed further light on the motors these cars used.
If anyone is contemplating fitting a Type4 motor, the most powerful one that VW produced was the AN series. This was fitted to the 412LS cars of the mid-70's era and was an 1800cc unit producing a reliable 85bhp in stock form. It is actually more powerful than the standard 2 litre engine found in late bays. It was an AN engine that I put in my late bay to replace the original 1600TP - it went straight in without any problems. As has been said, a bay is heavier than a Split, and my bay flew! The low down torque is particularly strong - great for hills.
The Porsche 914 also used the Type4 engine, 1800 initially, then 2.0. Not sure if these were AN series or not. Someone who knows about 914's might be able to shed further light on the motors these cars used.
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by maddison » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:22 am
914's are a great one to go for if you can find one
1.7 W codes kicked out 80hp standard
1.7 W codes kicked out 80hp standard
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by Haycoxs » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:39 am
Just in the midst of converting a 2.0 litre to upright to go into my split using CSP, new carbs, Jake Raby header and Speedshop muffler. Internals are standard. It's not cheap but I have took time and got some bargains (£700's worth exhaust for £200 - all stainless and brand new). Reading the comments above is reassuring
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by passion4 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:09 pm
So main ‘issues’ are getting heat exchangers (if required), tinwear and the type of cooling?
So there are a couple of off the shelf options for cooling solutions, but what are the options for exchangers, find originals and modify to fit a split? Same for tinwear?
So there are a couple of off the shelf options for cooling solutions, but what are the options for exchangers, find originals and modify to fit a split? Same for tinwear?
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?
by DoubleD » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:54 pm
The tinware for a Type4 is quite different to the normal Type1 stuff, but could no doubt be modified to suit. However, I decided to use sheet ally. You need a piece along each side, shaped around the inlet manifolds plus the large rear piece around the pulley. Jake Raby used to supply ready made sections for use with his DTM shroud (see pic) - I don't know if any of it is still available. I used some of these and added a modification to seal the crankshaft pulley area (frequently just left as a slot) to avoid heat rising up from the exhaust system. I think I may still have some templates for the main sections somewhere deep in the garage.
I used a Vintage Speed exhaust, fitted in the same position as the stock muffler for a Type1 motor, ie. fully inside the rear valance. This requires the stock heat exchangers to be shortened (CSP can supply these but they're expensive) and an air supply to be made available to push the heated air up front. The air has to come either from an electric fan (as generally fitted to the 2L buses) or via outlets on the shroud. (Note: a DTM shroud does not have any outlets). I decided not to fit heat exchangers and got some stainless header pipes made up to position the muffler where I wanted it. Similar very good headers (equal length) are available from Vintage Speed.
I've attached a few pics to illustrate the above - hope these will help.
Dave.
I used a Vintage Speed exhaust, fitted in the same position as the stock muffler for a Type1 motor, ie. fully inside the rear valance. This requires the stock heat exchangers to be shortened (CSP can supply these but they're expensive) and an air supply to be made available to push the heated air up front. The air has to come either from an electric fan (as generally fitted to the 2L buses) or via outlets on the shroud. (Note: a DTM shroud does not have any outlets). I decided not to fit heat exchangers and got some stainless header pipes made up to position the muffler where I wanted it. Similar very good headers (equal length) are available from Vintage Speed.
I've attached a few pics to illustrate the above - hope these will help.
Dave.
-
- DTM tinware sections
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