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Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by jerrythegerman » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:13 pm
Hello all, thought i'd post my woe in the hope you can help me out. I'm spending more time on the bus than with my family at the mo and my wife knows how to pour and light petrol in a very effective way!!
I've a 65 split that has been straight axled, with a later 1200 beetle box and runs a fairly new 1641 TP type 1 engine. I'm newish to the aircooled scene, so bare with me. All this work has been done prior to me owning it.
A couple of weeks ago the clutch started to feel a little high in the pedal, i'd say it was a almost overnight feeling as it felt to have lost its play almost instantly after darting out of a junction. Following weekend we went to the lakes for the day and it started showing signs of slipping.
Looked at the adjuster (later wing nut type) and it was pretty much at the end of the cable. I thought, worn clutch, engine out job. No problem as I wanted to get to know it better and needed to do both rear corners and battery trays anyway.
Pulled the engine out and checked the clutch type and condition. It was a LUK 200mm job, but didn't look too worn (as I said, I'm new to aircooled so I didn't know how worn is worn, if you catch my drift) It was dry and no oil about in the bell housing. Ordered up a full new LUK setup and replaced it including the bearing. Checked the clutch fork and this is a fully welded up one and looked fine. Flywheel fine too. Put all back together, screwing the clutch cable back a little too as it was easy to get too.
Put the engine back in after doing the welding and started her up. Clutch was miles out of adjustment so wound it back towards the end of the cable. Still slipped, so wound it back again. Still the case and I am back to square 1 here. Slipping clutch with no adjustment left. Have I missed something? does the cable outer slip and does this affect how it works? is the wrong cable fitted or are all bus ones the same? can the other end (pedal) jump off and not settle properly? once in a while the pedal sticks down now too?? can the clutch operating arm on the outside of the gearbox move, throwing it all out?
Any idea's as I have to do it on the drive, I'm getting too old for this and most of the time it's raining here!!
I love my bus, but this is driving a wedge between the rest of us!!!
I've a 65 split that has been straight axled, with a later 1200 beetle box and runs a fairly new 1641 TP type 1 engine. I'm newish to the aircooled scene, so bare with me. All this work has been done prior to me owning it.
A couple of weeks ago the clutch started to feel a little high in the pedal, i'd say it was a almost overnight feeling as it felt to have lost its play almost instantly after darting out of a junction. Following weekend we went to the lakes for the day and it started showing signs of slipping.
Looked at the adjuster (later wing nut type) and it was pretty much at the end of the cable. I thought, worn clutch, engine out job. No problem as I wanted to get to know it better and needed to do both rear corners and battery trays anyway.
Pulled the engine out and checked the clutch type and condition. It was a LUK 200mm job, but didn't look too worn (as I said, I'm new to aircooled so I didn't know how worn is worn, if you catch my drift) It was dry and no oil about in the bell housing. Ordered up a full new LUK setup and replaced it including the bearing. Checked the clutch fork and this is a fully welded up one and looked fine. Flywheel fine too. Put all back together, screwing the clutch cable back a little too as it was easy to get too.
Put the engine back in after doing the welding and started her up. Clutch was miles out of adjustment so wound it back towards the end of the cable. Still slipped, so wound it back again. Still the case and I am back to square 1 here. Slipping clutch with no adjustment left. Have I missed something? does the cable outer slip and does this affect how it works? is the wrong cable fitted or are all bus ones the same? can the other end (pedal) jump off and not settle properly? once in a while the pedal sticks down now too?? can the clutch operating arm on the outside of the gearbox move, throwing it all out?
Any idea's as I have to do it on the drive, I'm getting too old for this and most of the time it's raining here!!
I love my bus, but this is driving a wedge between the rest of us!!!
jerrythegerman
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Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:47 pm
Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by pye1man » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:38 pm
Hi Jerry,jerrythegerman wrote:Hello all, thought i'd post my woe in the hope you can help me out. I'm spending more time on the bus than with my family at the mo and my wife knows how to pour and light petrol in a very effective way!!
I've a 65 split that has been straight axled, with a later 1200 beetle box and runs a fairly new 1641 TP type 1 engine. I'm newish to the aircooled scene, so bare with me. All this work has been done prior to me owning it.
A couple of weeks ago the clutch started to feel a little high in the pedal, i'd say it was a almost overnight feeling as it felt to have lost its play almost instantly after darting out of a junction. Following weekend we went to the lakes for the day and it started showing signs of slipping.
Looked at the adjuster (later wing nut type) and it was pretty much at the end of the cable. I thought, worn clutch, engine out job. No problem as I wanted to get to know it better and needed to do both rear corners and battery trays anyway.
Pulled the engine out and checked the clutch type and condition. It was a LUK 200mm job, but didn't look too worn (as I said, I'm new to aircooled so I didn't know how worn is worn, if you catch my drift) It was dry and no oil about in the bell housing. Ordered up a full new LUK setup and replaced it including the bearing. Checked the clutch fork and this is a fully welded up one and looked fine. Flywheel fine too. Put all back together, screwing the clutch cable back a little too as it was easy to get too.
Put the engine back in after doing the welding and started her up. Clutch was miles out of adjustment so wound it back towards the end of the cable. Still slipped, so wound it back again. Still the case and I am back to square 1 here. Slipping clutch with no adjustment left. Have I missed something? does the cable outer slip and does this affect how it works? is the wrong cable fitted or are all bus ones the same? can the other end (pedal) jump off and not settle properly? once in a while the pedal sticks down now too?? can the clutch operating arm on the outside of the gearbox move, throwing it all out?
Any idea's as I have to do it on the drive, I'm getting too old for this and most of the time it's raining here!!
I love my bus, but this is driving a wedge between the rest of us!!!
Is the clutch pedal at the front free moving? I had a problem with mine seizing recentely, worth a try! When the cable is disconected the pedal should fall to the floor! try that first and maybe in the meantime we can think of some more ideas!
Chin up
Andy
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by vwJim » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:44 pm
Not 100% what you mean by "does the cable outer slip and does this affect how it works?"
But a few things for you to check over.
Stretched / worn cable?
Worn clutch bushes at the gearbox arm end?
I had it recently on a bus where the pedal wouldn't come up off the floor.
Is the return spring broken on the gearbox arm?
On the bus I mentioned, the spring was good, but the bush on the pedal was sticking.
Also seen the clevis pin heavily worn. (that's the thing that joins the cable to the pedal)
But a few things for you to check over.
Stretched / worn cable?
Worn clutch bushes at the gearbox arm end?
I had it recently on a bus where the pedal wouldn't come up off the floor.
Is the return spring broken on the gearbox arm?
On the bus I mentioned, the spring was good, but the bush on the pedal was sticking.
Also seen the clevis pin heavily worn. (that's the thing that joins the cable to the pedal)
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by Biglozzer » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:03 pm
Hi jerry, the guys above all make good suggestions. I'd just say that I had a clutch cable really stretch and simular problems. Replaced it and all was well. Cheap and easy fix and worth it before any major work.
Good luck and chin up, it will be simple in the end.
Loz
Good luck and chin up, it will be simple in the end.
Loz
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by jerrythegerman » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:41 pm
Thanks all, much appreciated. just need to get to the bottom of it.
I'll try and clarify and add more detail.
If the cable was currently longer than it is, I could screw out the wing nut further and this would remove the slipping, its almost as if the cable is not long enough and the bearing is still engaging with the pressure plate (if that makes sense), so if I replaced it with a new cable (unstretched) , would that not be shorter? Is there a chance it has a bay one fitted or should have a bay one fitted? are they any different in lenght?
The pedal is nice and free, I've not looked at the clevis pin, but that will be my next port of call. The pedal has only stuck down since doing this work, once I had backed of the cable adjuster to almost the end, it has not stuck.
The fork at the gearbox is in good order, not sticking or slack in its housing, not bent inside, well lubed and it looks new to be honest. The spring is in place and again, looks in good order.
Jim, as yu know, the clutch cable has a outer, if this has slipped or jammed, would that cause this problem, almost shortening the iner because the out had jammed on something? The reason I mention this is that I read somewhere about the need for the outer to have 1/2 to 3/4 inch slack in it (or is this not anything to do with it?)
At the other end, could the cable jump where it connects to the pedal mechanism and in effect shorten the cable lenght?
Your comments are much appreciated gent's, a light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.
I'll try and clarify and add more detail.
If the cable was currently longer than it is, I could screw out the wing nut further and this would remove the slipping, its almost as if the cable is not long enough and the bearing is still engaging with the pressure plate (if that makes sense), so if I replaced it with a new cable (unstretched) , would that not be shorter? Is there a chance it has a bay one fitted or should have a bay one fitted? are they any different in lenght?
The pedal is nice and free, I've not looked at the clevis pin, but that will be my next port of call. The pedal has only stuck down since doing this work, once I had backed of the cable adjuster to almost the end, it has not stuck.
The fork at the gearbox is in good order, not sticking or slack in its housing, not bent inside, well lubed and it looks new to be honest. The spring is in place and again, looks in good order.
Jim, as yu know, the clutch cable has a outer, if this has slipped or jammed, would that cause this problem, almost shortening the iner because the out had jammed on something? The reason I mention this is that I read somewhere about the need for the outer to have 1/2 to 3/4 inch slack in it (or is this not anything to do with it?)
At the other end, could the cable jump where it connects to the pedal mechanism and in effect shorten the cable lenght?
Your comments are much appreciated gent's, a light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.
jerrythegerman
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by kev mc » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:07 pm
check the conduit is located in its housing on the bracket by the gearbox, there is a sleeve that it slides into about half to three quaters of an inch. it could be resting on the side and bending the conduit more than it needs to be. if you get my drift.
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by lucky » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:56 pm
The 3 weak points on this set up are the cable, conduit, and the bearing release arm.
It's been a while since i've done a clutch but in my younger days, my driving style dictated a rather fast engine out/clutch change
I've had the cable stretch massively although not actually break, causing gear crunching.
I've had the conduit bend out of shape giving incorrect cable adjustment and slip.
I've had the release arm, on two occasions bend and break,
Personally i'd go with the cable/conduit bend. I'm sure i saw somewhere that there is actually an amount of bend recommended by vw?
Anyone remember this?
It's been a while since i've done a clutch but in my younger days, my driving style dictated a rather fast engine out/clutch change
I've had the cable stretch massively although not actually break, causing gear crunching.
I've had the conduit bend out of shape giving incorrect cable adjustment and slip.
I've had the release arm, on two occasions bend and break,
Personally i'd go with the cable/conduit bend. I'm sure i saw somewhere that there is actually an amount of bend recommended by vw?
Anyone remember this?
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by zippy » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:57 pm
There are a few different lengths of clutch cable for different years and left hand drive ones are shorter than rhd ones too AFAIK. As said in all above posts, it does not take much to make a clutch/cable stick. Double check everything!!
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by vwadnad » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:15 am
This is out the bentley manual showing the conduit bend if that helps..............
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by tyler » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:43 am
i think that tube id referd to as the 'bowden tube'? and correct fitment is essential, id fit a new cavle to be sure it isnt causing a problem!
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by jerrythegerman » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:00 am
Thanks all for your suggestions, I'll have a look at that tube and guide today. It would make a fair bit of sense if that was the case. I'll also get a cable on order, it's LHD too so I'll make sure I get the right one.
Will report back my findings, and once again thanks.
Will report back my findings, and once again thanks.
jerrythegerman
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Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:47 pm
Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by sidewinder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:45 am
You are correct there fella.zippy wrote:There are a few different lengths of clutch cable for different years and left hand drive ones are shorter than rhd ones too AFAIK. As said in all above posts, it does not take much to make a clutch/cable stick. Double check everything!!
My RHD bus had a LHD cable fitted when i bought it. The clutch did'nt fully disengage because of that.
Sounds like Jerry has the opposite problem.
You may have a RHD clutch cable fitted or a bay clutch cable.
Pull your clutch cable completely out and measure it:
For a split bus:
RHD is 3135mm
LHD is 3116mm
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by jerrythegerman » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:24 pm
Had another look at the pedal lever. Looks like it is nice and free right up to the point it stops short (by about 3/4 inch on its return). I forced it up and there is now more slack in the cable!! I can even feel the point where the bearing engages with the friction plate.
Looks like that's the problem then. I've took off the cable and disconnected the pedal, undone the large 17mm nut and tried to press the pin out....boy that thing is tight. Managed to move it 3-5 mm and pumped loads of freeing oil in it. Will let that do its thing and get some grease in there. I would think I really need to get this full out to clean it and lube it properly, but it's stuck fast..any tips?
I've undone the nut, does the arem have to swing round in a certain plave to take it out? or is there a split pin. My bntly manaual is a bit wooly on this.
Looks like that's the problem then. I've took off the cable and disconnected the pedal, undone the large 17mm nut and tried to press the pin out....boy that thing is tight. Managed to move it 3-5 mm and pumped loads of freeing oil in it. Will let that do its thing and get some grease in there. I would think I really need to get this full out to clean it and lube it properly, but it's stuck fast..any tips?
I've undone the nut, does the arem have to swing round in a certain plave to take it out? or is there a split pin. My bntly manaual is a bit wooly on this.
jerrythegerman
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by Magic8Ball » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:50 am
A couple of things spring to mind here...scuse the pun
Straight axle can bring about some form of customising when fitting the clutch cable, not least of all where the conduit lies. Also VWJim sells taller clutch lever arms which benefit you with an easier pedal travel. I passed a piece of string from pedal to clutch lever took the measurement then found a cable that was the nearest in length. Also when installing the clutch did you use a clutch aligning tool ?
Tried heat on your nuts ......
to loosen em that is
Keep us posted, i'm sure it can be solved, also where are you, sometimes 2 pairs of hands are useful, can you move the pedal freely by hand without the cable attached ? does it move freely up and down ? if it does then its more likely to be the length of cable so when its connected up there is nowhere for it to go and it feels dead ?
GOOD LUCK, remember there is help out there ...........
Straight axle can bring about some form of customising when fitting the clutch cable, not least of all where the conduit lies. Also VWJim sells taller clutch lever arms which benefit you with an easier pedal travel. I passed a piece of string from pedal to clutch lever took the measurement then found a cable that was the nearest in length. Also when installing the clutch did you use a clutch aligning tool ?
Tried heat on your nuts ......
to loosen em that is
Keep us posted, i'm sure it can be solved, also where are you, sometimes 2 pairs of hands are useful, can you move the pedal freely by hand without the cable attached ? does it move freely up and down ? if it does then its more likely to be the length of cable so when its connected up there is nowhere for it to go and it feels dead ?
GOOD LUCK, remember there is help out there ...........
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Re: Clutch issue - bus ownership at risk!!
by jerrythegerman » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:17 am
Hello,
It's got the longer arm on, which means that it would require a longer cable (I would guess) but with the pedal fully up, it looks like it's long enough.
The nuts are off the front, just the pin is stuck in (the pin that goes through the chassis to the long arm which in turn connects at the other end of the pedal)
Not sure if that when you undo the 17mm nut and the 13mm nut and bolt at the pedal end, the whole shabang should come out. Or do you need to twist it in some way? is moving more now after getting some oil in it but I would like to take it out and really clean it up and grease it before going back together. That way, I won't be doing it again in 6 months time!!
I live near Warrington, Cheshire. Bit far for your very good self, but thatnks for the offer anyway.
Help has been more than flowing on this, once again thank you all for your advice. Keeping me going!!
It's Karma, I'm usually providing it on old Cooper's and S's!! My other toy!!
It's got the longer arm on, which means that it would require a longer cable (I would guess) but with the pedal fully up, it looks like it's long enough.
The nuts are off the front, just the pin is stuck in (the pin that goes through the chassis to the long arm which in turn connects at the other end of the pedal)
Not sure if that when you undo the 17mm nut and the 13mm nut and bolt at the pedal end, the whole shabang should come out. Or do you need to twist it in some way? is moving more now after getting some oil in it but I would like to take it out and really clean it up and grease it before going back together. That way, I won't be doing it again in 6 months time!!
I live near Warrington, Cheshire. Bit far for your very good self, but thatnks for the offer anyway.
Help has been more than flowing on this, once again thank you all for your advice. Keeping me going!!
It's Karma, I'm usually providing it on old Cooper's and S's!! My other toy!!
jerrythegerman
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